Who coupled bipedalism in fresh, encephalization in salt?

Discussions about Waterside Hypotheses of Human Evolution or any other topic related to human evolution.

Moderator: CEngelbrecht

Who coupled bipedalism in fresh, encephalization in salt?

Postby CEngelbrecht » Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:02 pm

I'm desperately trying to remember who coupled bipedalism ermerging in freshwater habitats first (Sahel.?, 7mya), and encephalization emerging in salt water second (Homo, 2mya)?
Was it Cunnane, Ellis, Niemitz, Verhaegen? Sorry, I'm mixing all the names together sometimes.
User avatar
CEngelbrecht
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:10 pm
Location: Scania, Sweden

Re: Who coupled bipedalism in fresh, encephalization in salt

Postby AlgisKuliukas » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:20 pm

CEngelbrecht wrote:I'm desperately trying to remember who coupled bipedalism ermerging in freshwater habitats first (Sahel.?, 7mya), and encephalization emerging in salt water second (Homo, 2mya)?
Was it Cunnane, Ellis, Niemitz, Verhaegen? Sorry, I'm mixing all the names together sometimes.


Mmm... don't know. I do know that's what I've always thought but I don't know where I got the idea from.

Cunnane et al, as far as I can tell tend to avoid most of the physical arguments and concentrate on encephalisation and the importance of diet.

Ellis is the wetland ape guy. Again, not sure if he distinguished much between fresh and salt water habitats there. Coastal logoons were big for him, for example.

Niemitz does back wading as a fctor in the origin of bipedalism but shies away from giving any support to any other waterside hypothesis.

Verhaegen seems to think it was coastal first and that fresh water habitats were colonised later.

Elaine, like Hardy, always went for the U-turn hypothesis - coastal first (maybe the Afar triangle) followed by a reversion to terrestrial life later.

So... maybe it was me. River Apes... Coastal People. I've been bagning my head against a brick wall on that for above 14 years but haven't published anything on it yet.

Algis
Waterside hypotheses of human evolution assert that selection from wading, swimming and diving and procurement of food from aquatic habitats have significantly affected the evolution of the lineage leading to Homo sapiens as distinct from that leading to Pan. (p118)
Kuliukas, A., Morgan, E. (2011). Aquatic scenarios in the thinking on human evolution: What are they and how do they compare?. In: Vaneechoutte, M., Verhaegen, M., Kuliukas, A. (2011). Was Man More Aquatic in the Past?
User avatar
AlgisKuliukas
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:24 pm

Re: Who coupled bipedalism in fresh, encephalization in salt

Postby CEngelbrecht » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:59 am

Oh, okay. Now it sounds like I made have concocted some of it myself (now I'm like Chan). The point is to answer the criticism of arguing both bipedalism and encephalization as aquatic, which occured at quite different time frames.

For all the heckling, user Menyambal (reply 1016 in the PZ Myers thread actually had a good comment:
Making the transition from salt to fresh can be done in evolutionary time, and even in a salmon’s lifetime, but the iodine and DHA that we supposedly need aren’t to be found in the rivers of the world. Indeed, the moist American Great Lakes region was one of the two worst places in the US for iodine shortages. The Pacific Northwest, also rainy and rivery and swampy, was the other. Algis’s river waddlers would have been hardest hit by Engelbrecht’s iodine shortage.

It would make sense when coupling Cunnane et al's micronutrient studies, that because DHA and Iodine are in shorter supply in fresh water food chains, then bipedalism can occur early in fresh water habitats, because bipedalism is only dependent on a shallow water habitat, which can be either fresh, brackish, alcalic or saline (which would be for simians specifically, some peculiar exaptation to our mutual brachiating origin, e.g. all the way back from Proconsul). Conversely, encephalization is dependent on either alcalic (vulcanic lakes along the Rift, I mean) or saline habitats, ’cause those habitats contains food chains with much more DHA and iodine. Because the hominins (subtribe australopithecinae) lived in fresh water first (7-1mya), and then a branch of these (subtribe Hominina) took off and adapted to alcalic lakes or possibly a salt water flooded Afar depression (2.5mya and onward), then their brain could take off in size. ‘Cause now the foodchains could support it, as we see it in other big-brained aquatic and semiaquatic mammals.

(Just copying what I already wrote there.)

Why did you split human evolution into two different habitats, river apes --> coastal people? Was that purely from the locations of the fossils?

Have I understood it correct, that the Afar/Danakil depression was flooded by sea water and made into a tropical archipelago during that key stage 2.5-2mya at the emergence of Homo and increasing encephalization? Is that Elaine arguing that? 'Cause with this, I feel like saying, "Oh yeah. It's all coming together."
User avatar
CEngelbrecht
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:10 pm
Location: Scania, Sweden

Re: Who coupled bipedalism in fresh, encephalization in salt

Postby AlgisKuliukas » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:34 pm

CEngelbrecht wrote:Oh, okay. Now it sounds like I made have concocted some of it myself (now I'm like Chan). The point is to answer the criticism of arguing both bipedalism and encephalization as aquatic, which occured at quite different time frames.


I see. I've never seen that as a problem as long as you posit that early (pre Homo) small brained hominids lived in land in fresh water habiats (hence River Apes) whereas large brained hominins lived where DHa and Iodine were rich (hence coastal people.)

CEngelbrecht wrote:For all the heckling, user Menyambal (reply 1016 in the PZ Myers thread actually had a good comment:
Making the transition from salt to fresh can be done in evolutionary time, and even in a salmon’s lifetime, but the iodine and DHA that we supposedly need aren’t to be found in the rivers of the world. Indeed, the moist American Great Lakes region was one of the two worst places in the US for iodine shortages. The Pacific Northwest, also rainy and rivery and swampy, was the other. Algis’s river waddlers would have been hardest hit by Engelbrecht’s iodine shortage.



Early hominids didn't have particularly large brains, later hominins did.

CEngelbrecht wrote:
It would make sense when coupling Cunnane et al's micronutrient studies, that because DHA and Iodine are in shorter supply in fresh water food chains, then bipedalism can occur early in fresh water habitats, because bipedalism is only dependent on a shallow water habitat, which can be either fresh, brackish, alcalic or saline (which would be for simians specifically, some peculiar exaptation to our mutual brachiating origin, e.g. all the way back from Proconsul).



Absolutely. I do not see early wading river apes as doing it for any other reason that, as climate changed, their forests shrank closer to permanent water courses subjected to seasonal flooding.

CEngelbrecht wrote:
Conversely, encephalization is dependent on either alcalic (vulcanic lakes along the Rift, I mean) or saline habitats, ’cause those habitats contains food chains with much more DHA and iodine. Because the hominins (subtribe australopithecinae) lived in fresh water first (7-1mya), and then a branch of these (subtribe Hominina) took off and adapted to alcalic lakes or possibly a salt water flooded Afar depression (2.5mya and onward), then their brain could take off in size. ‘Cause now the foodchains could support it, as we see it in other big-brained aquatic and semiaquatic mammals.



Yes. That's my view... Costal People.

CEngelbrecht wrote:
(Just copying what I already wrote there.)

Why did you split human evolution into two different habitats, river apes --> coastal people? Was that purely from the locations of the fossils?



It fits the evidence. We have to go by the evidence. Unless (or until) there is A LOT of unequivocal evidence of Homo erectus eating shellfish, the best evidence for that is with Homo sapiens.

CEngelbrecht wrote:
Have I understood it correct, that the Afar/Danakil depression was flooded by sea water and made into a tropical archipelago during that key stage 2.5-2mya at the emergence of Homo and increasing encephalization? Is that Elaine arguing that? 'Cause with this, I feel like saying, "Oh yeah. It's all coming together."


My understanding is that Afar flooded about 4 Mya and only became dessicated quite recently. I've always liked the idea that modern humans evolved around there somewhere and that it was the final dessication that drove them away - but its just speculation.

All the best

Algis

PS

Thanks for your support on PZ's blog and elsewhere. It's great to feel that I'm not alone in thinking that the response is absurd!
Waterside hypotheses of human evolution assert that selection from wading, swimming and diving and procurement of food from aquatic habitats have significantly affected the evolution of the lineage leading to Homo sapiens as distinct from that leading to Pan. (p118)
Kuliukas, A., Morgan, E. (2011). Aquatic scenarios in the thinking on human evolution: What are they and how do they compare?. In: Vaneechoutte, M., Verhaegen, M., Kuliukas, A. (2011). Was Man More Aquatic in the Past?
User avatar
AlgisKuliukas
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:24 pm


Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron